miercuri, 8 aprilie 2009

Dialectele limbii române

Începutul unui basm în dacoromână, aromână, meglenoromână şi istroromână. Unele caractere (litere) nu am reuşit să le reproduc întocmai ca în textul original aflat în lucrarea "Aromânii", apărută în anul 2004, la Bucureşti, a profesorului Corneliu Beda.
Ceea ce am urmărit a fost să demonstrez asemănările foarte mari între limba vorbită de românii de la nord şi sud de Dunăre.

Dacoromână

Era odată un împărat care nu avea niciun fiu şi dorea mult să aibă un fiu, ca să nu i se stingă numele. De aceea se ruga la Dumnezeu să-i dea un fiu.
Într-o zi se duse la un vrăjitor, să vadă dacă-i va da Domnul un fiu sau nu.
Iară acel vrăjitor îi dete un măr şi-i zise: să dai nevestii tale acest măr să-l mănânce şi ea va naşte un fiu aşa cum îţi cere inima.

Aromână

Eara nă oară una miră ţe no-avea niţiun h'il'u şi multu durea durea s'aibă un h'il'u tra s nu-l' se-astingă numa. De-aţea nâs ura la Dumnidzău să-l' da un h'il'u.
Nă dzuă si duse la un magu, ma-z-veadă di se va-l'da Domnul h'il'u ică nu.
Am aţel mag îl' deade un mer şi-l' dzâse: si-l dai a mul'are-tăi aestu mer şi s-lu mâcă, şi ea va s-facă un h'il'u, aşiţe cum îl' doare inima.

Meglenoromână

Ra ună oară un ampirat cari nu ve niţiun il'iu şi multu ţinea să aibă un il'iu, sa nu-l'i si stingă numea. Di ţea iel tucu si ruga la Domnu să-l'i da un il'iu.
Ună zuuă si dusi la un maghesnic, să cată dă-l'i să-l'i da Domnu vrin il'iu ili nu.
Ară ţel meghesnic ăl'i dedi ună meră şi-l'i zisi: să-u dai la mul'iari-ta ţestă meră şi să-u mănancă, şi ea să rudească un il'iu şa cum aţi ţeri buricu.

Istroromână

O vote fost-a un cral' carle n'a vut nancun fil' şi ie fost t'aro rada ve un fil' se nu l'i se zatare lumele. Din ţăsta rugat-a Domnu neca-l' daie un fil'.
O zi mes-a la un strigun, za vede se-l va da Domnu da un fil', ali se nu va.
Şi ţela strigun l'-a dat un mere şi l'-a zis: de ţesta mer lu te mul'ere neca-l poide si va rodi un fil' cum rei tu vre.

Textele originale se găsesc în lucrarea "Aromânii" a profesorului Corneliu Beda, la pagina 44.

196 de comentarii:

Marius Filip spunea...

Din cele patru fragmente se mai poate desprinde ceva: istroromâna se aseamănă mai mult cu dacoromâna iar meglenoromâna mai mult cu aromâna.

Adică se poate vorbi de două grupe transdialectale ale limbii române, una nordică şi cealaltă sudică.

Emil Carageorge spunea...

Despre megleno si istroromana nu ma pot pronunta, dar ca aroman pot sa iti spun ca textul contine niste greseli. Ori l-ai copiat gresit, ori era scris gresit in carte. Cele care sar in ochi imediat sint "una mira" (corect "un amira"), "durea" scris de doua ori, "di se va-l'da Domnul" (corect "di va-l' da Domnul"). In rest, poate textul va fi citit (si comentat!) de cei care sustin ca aromana este o limba separata de romana.

crisa spunea...

am si eu o intrebare vreau sa fac cursuri de Aromana... unde as putea face? Cristina

Marius Filip spunea...

Din câte ştiu, Ministerul Învăţământului a conceput un manual pentru materia opţională Istoria şi Dialectul Aromânilor.

Aromâna se predă opţional în unele localităţi din Dobrogea. Am văzut un filmuleţ pe YouTube cu vizita lui Cristian Tabără într-o comunitate aromână din Dobrogea, iar o secvenţă se referea tocmai la lecţiile de aromână pe care le preda un profesor tinerilor din comună.

Se foloseau ambele grafii. Curios este că Tabără nu a putut distinge între cele două, deci să vadă că armãnj nu înseamă nimic altceva decât ... armâñi.

crisa spunea...

da stiam ca asociata aromanilor din bucuresti au niste cursuri vinera din bucuresti.... as vrea mai multe detalii....

Marius Filip spunea...

În Bucureşti sunt mai multe adociaţii aromâne, cred.

Una din ele era prezidată de Athanasie Nasta şi acum îl are în frunte pe Hristu Cândroveanu (cred).

Această asociaţie macedo-română susţinea românismul aromânilor. Nu ştiu dacă are cursuri de aromână, acum 18 ani când participam la şedinţele ei nu avea.

Am mai văzut şi o Sutsata Armanjlor sau cam aşa ceva. Din grafie se poate vedea că aparţine celuilalt curent, care-i vede pe aromâni un popor distinct de cel românesc. Posibil ca o asemenea asociaţie să aibă cursuri de aromână.

Aromâna se poate învăţa fără cursuri. Eu am învăţat-o după volumul Un Veac de Poezie Aromână al lui Hristu Cândroveanu, care nu avea nici măcar transpuneri exacte, ci traduceri artistice.

Însă e suficient un text de maxim 100 de pagini cu variante paralele în ambele dialecte ca aromâna să fie deprinsă, cel puţin în ceea ce are mai specific şi esenţial.

crisa spunea...

si unde se gasesc aceste carti? eu am tot cautat da nimic. Stiu o ascoiatie pe Vasile Lascar am fost da azi era inchis....

Marius Filip spunea...

La anticari. La biblioteca municipală. Existau şi la Biblioteca Centrală Universitară înainte de Revoluţie.

Emil Carageorge spunea...

Crisa, te invit si pe siteul www.daimadeadun.webs.com unde poti afla mai multe despre dialectul aroman. Si poti vedea si "filmuletul" despre care vorbea Marius, la pagina "Intamplarile culturale Daima". Este vorba despre o editie a emisiunii "Te vezi la stirile ProTV" realizata de Cristi Tabara cu ajutorul nostru, al celor de la Fara Armaneasca din Tulcea.

bogdan stere spunea...

crisa, daca te intereseaza, as putea face rost de un manual de aromana. trimite-mi adresa ta de mail!

Sergiu spunea...

Fara cuvinte...
foarte frumos si deosebit de interesant!

crisa spunea...

Crisa: multumesc sergiu adresa mea de email este ucy_712@hotmail.com

crisa spunea...

da multumesc bogdan am gresit numele sorry hehehehe

Florin Croitoru spunea...

O problemă de logică:
Este evident că textele sînt scrise într-o limbă,nu în mai multe şi că acestea sînt dialecte. Problema e : d ce să afirmăm că aromâna ,meglenorom şi istro rom sînt dialecte ale limbii române cînd nu e dovedit că acestea s-au format din limba română.Nu s ecunoaşte nici o mare emigrare a românilor şi nici mici emigrări în decursul sutelor de ani. Treceri de populaţie de la Nord la Sud de Dunăre au fost mereu dar un fenomen de emigrare doar din Nord în Sud nu a fost.
Văd că unii lingvişti afirmă că aromânii ar fi emigrat înainte de venirea slavilor,dar prin aceasta se contrazic singuri pt că tot ei spun că româna s-a format dupăvenirea slavilor, ori limba vorbită de eromâni îi contrazice clar !Dacă e adevărat că exodul s-a întîmplat înainte de venirea slavilor avem o dovadă că româna este extraordinar de conservatoare.
Totuşi în această teorie e o mare lipsă de logică pe lîngă o totală lipsă de dovezi.
Deci: de unde rezultă că aromâna este dialect al limbii române? în afară de faptul evident că seamănă tare. Adică se ştie ceva clar că ei au venit în Grecia din România?

Marius Filip spunea...

Una din teorii cu privire la istro-români este că sunt urmaşii unor crişeni, bănăţeni sau moţi care, după ce au hălăduit prin Bosnia, s-au stabilit în Istria. Oricum, un lingvist (al cărui nume nu-l mai reţin) spunea că "dacă se dezbracă istro-româna de materialul croat, are aspect de grai dacoromân".

Referitor la aromână şi megleno-română, nu este vorba de desprinderea lor din dacoromână, ci din evoluţia dacoromânei, a aromânei şi a meglenoromânei din limba română comună (protoromână) care avea trăsăturile esenţiale formate, diferite de latină, fie până la venirea slavilor fie până la separarea definitivă a celor două blocuri (cel mai târziu sec. IX).

Deci aromâna nu este dialect al românei literare actuale (bazată pe dacoromână) ci a românei comune.

Aceste dialecte ar fi limbi separate dacă ar fi descins fiecare de capul ei direct din latină şi dacă ar prezenta deosebiri structurale semnificative.

Nu este cazul, aromâna şi meglenoromâna sunt, în ce au material latin, esenţialmente un stadiu mai arhaic al limbii române - aceasta o poate vedea şi un nespecialist.

Florin Croitoru spunea...

Eu v-am dat o mică problemă de logică şi văd că bateţi cîmpii în continuare fără să fiţi în stare să răspundeţi la chestiunea ridicată de mine.
Eu nu am cerut teorii despre desprinderea aromânilor din crişani,oşeni etc ci o dovadă că aşa a fost.
Dezbrăcaţi aici istroromâna de material croat şi nu mai vorbiţi despre ce nu cunoaşteţi.
Din urm exprimare agramată nu înţeleg mare lucru:
"Referitor la aromână şi megleno-română, nu este vorba de desprinderea lor din dacoromână, ci din evoluţia dacoromânei, a aromânei şi a meglenoromânei din limba română comună (protoromână) care avea trăsăturile esenţiale formate, diferite de latină, fie până la venirea slavilor fie până la separarea definitivă a celor două blocuri (cel mai târziu sec. IX)."
Cum adică desprindere din evoluţie?
Apoi slavii au venit începînd cu sec 5.Dacă se desprindea aromâna de română în secolelle 6,7,8 trebuia să conţină cuvintele slave din română,ori nu e cazul.
Dar unde este dovada că s-a desprins din româna comună ? Poate s-a format acolo. Unde e dovada emigrării unui număr enorm de aromâni din teritoriile de la Nord de Dunăre?
Dintr-o evoluţie indiferent de ce natură ar fi nu se poate desprinde ceva !
E bine totuşi că ştiţi că aromâna nu e dialect al.....românei literare.
Şi unde e dovada că aceste dialecte (megleno şi aromân ) s-au vorbit în trecut pe accest teritoriu, al României de azi? După cîte ştiu eu specialiştii nu au găsit-o dar poate dv mi-o arătaţi. Sînt curios.

Marius Filip spunea...

Stimate domn, înainte de toate, reglează-ţi limbajul dacă doreşti să ai interlocutor.

N-am pomenit cum că aromânii s-ar trage din crişeni şi olteni. Citeşte ca lumea ce am scris înainte de a da replică.

Dta ai spus că "ceilalţi români" nu s-au desprins din dacoromâni. Nu este adevărat, istro-românii se pare că chiar descind din dacoromâni, şi anume cel mai probabil dintr-un grup dacoromân vestic. Dovada stă în rotacismul limbii lor.

Referitor la aromâni sau megleniţi, nimeni nu spune că au scoborât din Dacia, stimate domn.

Ei s-au format la Sudul Dunării de la începuturi, cel mai probabil ceva mai la Nord decât îi găsim azi, şi anume în Dardania şi cele două Moesii, adică la Nord de linia Jirecek.

Faptul că dta nu înţelegi ce scriu are de-a face mai mult cu priceperea dtale decât cu exprimarea mea.

Aromâna, meglenita şi dacoromâna au descins dintr-o limbă comună, numită română comună.

Această limbă se formase în trăsăturile ei esenţiale, diferite de latină, FIE până la sosirea slavilor, FIE până la spargerea unităţii româneşti, nu mai târziu de sec. IX.

Ce-i aşa de greu de priceput?

În lipsa izvoarelor scrise, care au scăzut rapid pe măsură ce latina a încetat a mai fi o limbă oficială în Bizanţ, datele nu se pot stabili decât aproximativ.

Şi oricum, trecerea de la latină la protoromână şi apoi de la protoromână la cele 2 grupuri (nordic, dacoromân şi sudic, aromân-meglenit) s-a produs treptat.

Slavii au venit începând cu sec. V, stimate domn, dar presiunea pe care au pus-o asupra autohtonilor a fost treptată, la fel şi împingerea blocului sudic mai spre sud, în rând cu asimilarea celor rămaşi în Bulgaria şi Serbia actuale - altfel nu am fi avut Asăneştii vlahi în Stara Planina la şapte secole după prima apariţie a slavilor în Balcani!

Florin Croitoru spunea...

D-le,dacă tot mă stimezi nu mă mai minţi sfruntat.Citat :"Una din teorii cu privire la istro-români este că sunt urmaşii unor crişeni, bănăţeni sau moţi care, după ce au hălăduit prin Bosnia, s-au stabilit în Istria." Cine a scris asta mai sus? Cum adică ,nu ai pomenit? Poate nu ştiu eu să citesc....."ca lumea", dar am dat aici citatul ca să se vadă bine. Învăţaţi să daţi citate şi nu mai citaţi voit fals. Arătaţi aici pasajul unde eu am scris că "ceilalţi români" (aşa m-am exprimat?) nu s-au desprins din români . Am scris că makedonii.....şi meglenii şi istrioţii nu s-au desprins din români.
Referitor la istrioţi şi megleniţi spun destui că provin de la Nord de Dunăre la fel ca aromânii.
2) Unde e dovada că ei s-au format în Sudul Dunării. Eu am presupus asta şi am şi găsit o dovadă care însă nu e luată în seamă nici de dacologi şi evident nici de romaniştii tradiţionalişti.Dovada este că limba română s-a potrivit la despărţirea textelor de pe o placă de plumb dacică şi de pe inelul de aur de la Ezerovo.Asta înseamnă că limba română şi dialectele ei sînt anterioare influenţei romane şi că aromânii erau acolo şi înainte de romani şi chiar de greci.
Dv nu aveţi nimic,doar presupuneri rostite de parca ar fi dovedite.Teoria oficială afirmă provenienţa aromânilor de la Nord de Dunăre; tot fără vreo dovadă.
3) Faptul că nu am înţeles bine exprimarea are de a face cu priceperea d-le de a scrie.Am înţeles că redactarea este directă aşa încît pot trece cu vederea mici inexactităţi.
"Această limbă se formase în trăsăturile ei esenţiale, diferite de latină, FIE până la sosirea slavilor, FIE până la spargerea unităţii româneşti, nu mai târziu de sec. IX.

Ce-i aşa de greu de priceput?"
Nu e greu deloc de priceput,chestia e că nu e nici o dovadă pt asta. Asta e o presupunere. Dacă acest lucru e adevărat de ce pe un inel din sec al 5-lea îen se poate citi ....".Niescă-o-a pacea ! Dă mă-nţileci vii ta mie paciea ta" ? Asta este clar un text în româneşte. Savanţii care postulează că româna s-a format din latină au prezentat vreun text în acea latină vulgară? Nuuuuuuu.....că nu au găsit.Eu zic că nici nu a existat acea latină vulgară răspîndită pe un teritoriu uriaş.Au existat diferite dialecte italiene, ca şi azi,limbi şi dialecte ibericeînrudite cu dialectele italiene. Limbile tracice au fost şi sînt şi ele înrudite cu limbile greceşti (da ,sînt mai multe!) şi cu limbile italice şi iberice.Dovadă sînt textele de pe placile de plumb scrise de daci, al căror texte însă nu sînt despărţite corect (afară de placa nr 16 la care am despărţit eu textul)
"Şi oricum, trecerea de la latină la protoromână şi apoi de la protoromână la cele 2 grupuri (nordic, dacoromân şi sudic, aromân-meglenit) s-a produs treptat".
Mersi,dar nu am văzut vreo dovadă pt asta. Asta este o presupunere ce rezultă din asemănarea limbilor.

"Slavii au venit începând cu sec. V, stimate domn, dar presiunea pe care au pus-o asupra autohtonilor a fost treptată, la fel şi împingerea blocului sudic mai spre sud, în rând cu asimilarea celor rămaşi în Bulgaria şi Serbia actuale - altfel nu am fi avut Asăneştii vlahi în Stara Planina la şapte secole după prima apariţie a slavilor în Balcani!"
Slavii au venit şi nu au împins pe nimeni ci s-au integrat . Numărul lor a fost oricum infim în raport cu localnicii. Iar presupuneţi şi scrieţi din ceea ce au presupus alţii.Faptul că limba lor a cîştigat arată că nu numărul e hotărîtor.Iar Asăneştii precum şi numărul mare de vorbitori de română din Bulgaria evului mediu arată că slavizarea s-a făcut f încet.Dar de aici nu rezultă că mai înainte fusese vreo romanizare.
Nu mai deplasaţi subiectul. Aveţi o dovadă că aromânii se trag din români? Eu am prezentat pe saitul meu şi pe blog dovada că aromânii şi românii provin din traco-daci, la fel şi limba acestora.

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